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Avengers
avengers-natasha
astridv
I finally watched Avengers last night. I'm really not big on superheroes, nor on gadgets and explosions, and the movie came so highly praised that I feared there was no way but down - but this movie absolutely worked for me. It was entertaining, it was funny, it had lovely character interaction and the kind of ensemble I love, and the dialog rocked.

I could've done with fewer explosions because they bore me but those alien skeleton airships in the end were very cool!

Natasha is a great character, fandom, you didn't promise too much and now I find myself actually looking forward to her movie. But I *really* hope Joss is gonna be in charge of that one, too! "I'm in the middle of an interrogation", hee. The dialog and characterization are what made this movie and it had Joss written all over it. Tony: "How is this now about me?", Steve: "I'm sorry, isn't everything?" rofl. Joss even made Captain America work for me, as the straight man to Tony's snarkiness. (Though his name and his costume won't ever not make me wince, sorry Steve...)

As to Loki - watching 'Thor' I didn't get the Loki love and now I get it even less. I mean, he does make a convincing villain and the actor was great in the role. But I don't get the adoration. If I'm honest, I'm miffed because so often the characters I really like get hell from fandom for what are really very human flaws... like Buffy getting depressed after her friends tear her out of heaven... or Jennifer not adjusting super-quickly to a life threatened by life-sucking space vampires... or Nate Ford turning to alcohol and being kind of an asshole after his son dies and then not kicking the habit just like that *snaps*. Loki is a mass murderer but he's adopted.

^ Okay, but when Thor said that line I LOL'd. Oh, Thor! Whedon really must be a genius because after watching 'Thor' I thought he was one of the blandest characters I've ever seen but here he really came to life for me. How he cares about Earth and humans, and is humble in spite all his power. He's so honorable and earnest and really very adorable. (And he has really pretty eyes. For some reason I didn't notice that in 'Thor')

And the Hulk! I loved both Bruce and the Hulk, how did that happen? Ever since I was a kid I found that character completely unrelatable but here... the actor for Bruce was perfect, he had that air of calm and vulnerable with something barely contained beneath. And the Hulk was just awesome. The Hulk ROCKED. Especially in the end, when he smashes Loki around like a puppet (we all LOL'd) and when he casually punches his teammate without even looking. That was hilarious.

Question: me and my roommates were under the impression that Agent Coulson isn't really dead? Not sure I caught it right but didn't we have only Fury's word on it? And he may be holding something back?

And speaking of, Fury and Coulson are great characters, too! Coulson's fanboying over Captain America and Fury going badass with the bazooka were some of my favorite moments.

So yeah, loved it unconditionally, will watch it again. Would buy the DVD if it wasn't Marvel. I'm not feeling fannish about it which is a shame, considering that fandom is the land of milk and honey right now and it would be nice to share in the fun.

Well, I might check out some fic. Maybe something with Bruce or Natasha, or some ensembl-y gen... mmh.

Originally posted at Dreamwidth. Comments: comment count unavailable
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Coulson could possibly be alive - he does fall still but Fury did lie about the trading cards, so he could have potentially been lying about Coulson too.

I think this fic might appeal to what I've seen you like before - http://archiveofourown.org/works/405828 - it's shippy, Clint/Natasha, but very powerful. Just thought it might be your kinda story. :)

See, that's what I thought. He admitted he lied about the card because he needed to push the team's buttons. So he might've lied about the rest of it too. Fury seems like the kind who likes to keep his cards close to his chest. I hope he's alive, he was a very likable character.

Thanks for the rec. Clint/Natasha is cool, I'll check it out.

You could wait until the DVD goes second-hand and buy it that way (if the issue is giving money to Marvel)? If the issue is with Marvel's DVDs in general, though, well. Can't help you there.

And if you want Team and Bruce-feels fics, there are two series I am reccing the heck out of right now, one is the Tony & Bruce series (which deals with Issues that the characters have in an adorable but not too sappy way) and the Offers of Home series, where (again) Tony gives Bruce sanctuary...and then starts dragging in the other Avengers. Both are very enjoyable.

And then there's this which is ensemble and hilarious and includes a bacon freezer.

Disney's pirate protection doesn't play well with computer so the DVD most likely won't run properly.

Recs, cool! Think I'll start with the bacon freezer fic, I'm in the mood for something funny. :)

Ahhhh. Well. That's just a bag of fail. :(

You'll have to let me know what you think. :D

The fic really was hilarious! Exactly what I was in the mood for. :D

Astrid, I'm happy to have been instrumental in you going to see the Avengers. I'm glad you liked them.

Oooh, and fic that has Tony and Bruce in the same sentence. *loves*

Yeah, your review was very helpful as coming not so much from a fan of all things superhero. Anyway, I'm quite glad I caved and watched it after all. :) And I'm also glad that I'm apparently able to enjoy the fic!

I'd actually like to watch it once more in a theater but they don't show an English version here. Blechh... German dub.

Joss really was the perfect choice for this movie. I mean, I'm way into superheroes anyway and enjoyed all the lead-up movies (even if I didn't always think they were the greatest), so I expected to like it, but I didn't expect to LOVE it SO MUCH.

One of the reviews I read attributed its success to the fact that Joss is a TV writer and knows exactly how to balance a large ensemble while still giving every character a satisfying arc and adequate screen time, which is not something that you often see in feature films. Not only that, but it was just SO Joss. The humor, the darkness, the glimpses of humanity and weakness behind the strength in every character, the group of broken people coming together to create a makeshift family and save the world ... it was everything I've always loved most about his TV shows, channeled into a superhero property. And because of that it's really transcended the genre, appealing to people who aren't typically superhero or action or comic fans.

The depressing thing is that I'm sure all the subsequent movies that he's not directly involved in writing will be even more disappointing now that we've seen his take on The Avengers. Oh well.

(And if you're looking for fic I've been bookmarking the ones I like in my LJ memories and my AO3 bookmarks as I find them.)

Not only that, but it was just SO Joss. The humor, the darkness, the glimpses of humanity and weakness behind the strength in every character, the group of broken people coming together to create a makeshift family and save the world ... it was everything I've always loved most about his TV shows, channeled into a superhero property.

*nodnodnod*
And I'm really happy for Joss as well, to get a smash hit like this. He deserves it, too. :)

The ensemble factor is what sold it for me. All of these characters by themselves weren't just that interesting to me. But when they are brought together, bounced dialog back and forth, created sparks... they suddenly became intriguing.

The depressing thing is that I'm sure all the subsequent movies that he's not directly involved in writing will be even more disappointing now that we've seen his take on The Avengers. Oh well.

Yep. He set the bar pretty high.

Really shows the importance of a good script and director. Special effects and big stars don't make a movie.

I was going to comment on this post, but you just said everything I wanted to. I don't think I could add to the conversation if I tried.

No, wait. Only that I love Natasha. I can't WAIT for her movie.

and I REALLY need some Avengers icons.

Natashaaaaaaaa. <3 <3 <3

I liked the Avengers icons that you were using so much that I followed the links and got some of my own!

Yeah. I REALLY love her character.

And she's hot, so, you know, that's a plus. :)

I loved the movie as well. I didn't realize Black Widow was getting her own movie. I had seen all the movies prior (well except the Hulk since I was never a Hulk girl, 70's tv show aside) and liked them all (though admittedly Thor was weak).

As for the Loki love, I love him as a villain and nothing else. What little of the fandom that floats across my flist is big into Loki pairings, don't get it either. He's delightfully evil though, and I do like a good villain. And I hear you about the Buffy comparison. I felt the same way with Connor and Andrew. Connor has 101 reasons to be messed up and not like Angel and he's villified. Andrew has no reason to be a rapist and murderer and he's loved. Ah well, fans, what can you do?

I never thought about Coulson still being alive. It's certainly distinctly possible. Fury would have reasons to cover it up.

I sort of glazed over everything Avengers-related before but yes, I think I saw somewhere that she's getting her own movie. With the right writer and director that's got the potential to be cool.

Yes, Connor is another case like that! Poor bastard had his childhood stolen from him, was used and manipulated his by the person he loved and trusted... and people bitch that he's acting like a sulky teenager and has maybe some trust and anger issues...

Yeah I have enough trouble keeping up with my flists and stuff so I don't get out there looking at some of my other interests (like comic books). It could either be very good or laughable. We'll hope for the former and brace for the latter.

Exactly so. That used to get me so frustrated back in the day.

I'm looking forward to the Black Widow movie myself! Am really hoping Hawkeye is in it, too (loved their relationship, it was so *slashy*, not like most movie het UST, in that their possible attraction was just a small factor in a deeper and more complicated connection...)

I was convinced that one of the end credit shots would be a hint of Coulson still being alive! Because yes, Nick Fury would totally do that, if necessary...

I'm miffed because so often the characters I really like get hell from fandom for what are really very human flaws

As a long-time fan of villains, I can say that for me, personally, I hold heroes and villains to entirely different standards. There's a lot a hero can do that will be unforgivable for me (killing is a big one for a lot of superheroes), while as a villain doing the same thing will not change my feelings substantially. Much of this is because of the way such things will be treated in the narrative - heroes get rewarded in the end, villains punished. So a hero who missteps may pay for it to an extent, but largely will come out on top in the end - they'll have their friends around them, get the girl/boy, the adulation for saving the world (or at least the satisfaction of knowing they did); while the villain usually gets what's coming to him. Heroes sometimes get criticized when the audience believes they are not being held accountable for their flaws, while as villains rarely have that problem. A lot of the love of woobie villains is for characters who get no love in canon, so fandom jumps in to fill the void? (To make it clear - I'm not saying it's right or that such chars actually deserve love simply for being pretty/angsty, just that this is how it works?)

There's also those of us who love a good redemption story, and the greater the evil the more compelling the turn to good - more difficult struggles are more compelling, and while a hero usually is doing what comes naturally, villains fighting against their base natures to be heroic can be fascinating. In the same way that an alcoholic turning down a drink can be a huge significant moment while another character passing on a cocktail is not even worth noting.

--That being said, while I love Loki, the only way I can really buy his redemption is how they're doing it in the comics right now, with a reset to childhood and near-complete memory wipe. He's gone way too far to be forgiven; forget's all that's left!

(This fantastic fic is along the same line, and while it is pretty Loki-centric and doesn't have enough Natasha, it does have great comfortable gen teaminess between everyone and an awesome Clint-POV and is hilarious to boot, so might be worth checking out?)

I'm looking forward to the Black Widow movie myself! Am really hoping Hawkeye is in it, too (loved their relationship, it was so *slashy*, not like most movie het UST, in that their possible attraction was just a small factor in a deeper and more complicated connection...)

I really liked that about their relationship as well. I've always been a UST shipper anyway and the subtler the better. God, I really hope Joss is gonna do that movie because I don't trust many of the current Hollywood people to do those characters justice, especially Natasha. Like someone said above, I feel like anything else might be a letdown after this.

I can't believe I started to actually care this much about superhero characters. ;)

As a long-time fan of villains, I can say that for me, personally, I hold heroes and villains to entirely different standards.

Hm. I see. But this is why it goes so much against my grain. I just don't like the thought of having different standards 'cause it's not fair.

I mean, I rather like the character of Gul Dukat on DS9 and he's not exactly a shiny beacon of righteousness. I just think that 'good' characters always need to be given the same level of leeway.

I do like a good redemption story too, every once in a while. Would've loved one for Dukat but it would have been hard to pull off. I actually really liked Spike's on Buffy, and I'm one of the apparently few people who's totally happy with how it played out in canon. The whole soul=conscience factor made it possible to redeem the character while not whitewashing his past.

I'm not familiar with Avengers comics canon but I totally agree that Loki, from what I've seen, is too far gone for redemption so a reset would be the only way I could imagine it to work.

Thanks for the rec, if it's hilarious I will check it out. I'm in the mood for funny fic. I've already read two today I really liked. God, I missed having so much fic I can afford be picky and choose according to my mood. I had the fic cravings, man.


God, I really hope Joss is gonna do that movie because I don't trust many of the current Hollywood people to do those characters justice, especially Natasha. Like someone said above, I feel like anything else might be a letdown after this.

Ahhhh yes. Yeah, screwing up Natasha in her movie would be so disappointing (maybe they could find a female writer/director? That might help focus it right!)

I've always had issues with Joss Whedon - I love some of what he does and hate other things, often in the same series which gives me crazy whiplash - but he is so suited to writing superheroes, he can make them snarky and fun while still being human enough to be relatable and loveable.

Hm. I see. But this is why it goes so much against my grain. I just don't like the thought of having different standards 'cause it's not fair.

Ahhh, but don't you hold characters to different standards anyway? Like, you like Jennifer Keller, even though she's not as badass a fighter as Ronon - because Jennifer's a doctor and that's not her role. But you'd be disappointed if the writers always had her failing with medicine and science. While as if Ronon doesn't know anything about science, that's just to be expected; but him kicking ass in battle is part of his charm.

And you liked Dukat, even if you didn't think he was a good man - if, say, Sisko had done what Dukat had done, would you have liked him as much? (especially if he did those things and you were still expected to accept him as the hero of the story?)

Different standards maybe aren't fair, but they're hard to get around; and I think they're somewhat justifiable (then again, I'm largely a moral relativist, so...) I apply them to heroes, too - I've been reading comics now, and in those Thor will kill his enemies in battle, and I find that acceptable because that was how he was raised and how his honor works, and there's strict circumstances where he's willing to kill. While as if Batman kills anyone under any circumstances I cry bad writing, because that is not Batman. But I don't think Thor is necessarily a worse or better hero for it? (well, okay, Batman is Batman, but putting that aside...!)

--Ummmm I am not trying to argue with you or make you like chars you don't like or vice versa - everyone's got their favorites and for all kind of reasons! I just find this kind of thing fascinating ^^;

I liked Spike's redemption myself, and loved Angel vs Angelus too - the kid!Loki in the comics is hitting similar buttons for me, the idea of someone who has done terrible things in the past that were pretty much entirely out of their control, that they now have to find a way to overcome and move beyond (struggles against inner monsters are always so appealing to me!)

Hee, if it's humor you want, just read the first chapter of the fic I sent and see if it disappoints - it's also got h/c and team worry and just, yeah, I was hooked by about the 6th paragraph! ^^ And yes, oh the joy of being in a productive fandom *rolls about in the fic-pile*

Ahhh, but don't you hold characters to different standards anyway? Like, you like Jennifer Keller, even though she's not as badass a fighter as Ronon - because Jennifer's a doctor and that's not her role. But you'd be disappointed if the writers always had her failing with medicine and science. While as if Ronon doesn't know anything about science, that's just to be expected; but him kicking ass in battle is part of his charm.

Huh? That's not a different standard. In this case I expect each to not fail at their respective job. Of course every character has their own respective strength and weaknesses, and flaws that make them human.

Well, it's almost 1am, too late to talk more and to be honest I'm not sure I want to because this veers close to the topic of character bashing and that aggravates me too much. Might get back and talk more tomorrow though.

Sorry, didn't mean to enter difficult territory :( Let's just drop this and I'll maybe go take my rambling and raving to my own lj rather than forcing them on you!

G'night! (and sorry to have kept you up commenting when you could've been fic reading ^^;;;)

"You don't really understand an antagonist until you understand why he's a protagonist in his own version of the world."

I got that curtsey of John Rogers at the kungfumonkey blog... and if I think about Loki in that way, he makes a lot more sense.

And I'm not usually a bad guy lover either... but he's got a lot more to him when you look at him that way.

Oh! I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I wanted to push you to see it, but as you said, I know superheroes aren't generally your thing. Yay!

I was quite sceptical but yeah, really enjoyed it! I didn't seem them as superheroes first (which I have a hard time relating to) but rather as people. Who have superpowers.

I just generally have a kink for stories about people with different skillsets and personalities who come together to form a team and fight bad guys. (Leverage, ahem)

And I read some fic yesterday that was really really good. I'mma take a few hours off now so I'm about to pick something new to read. :)

I'll admit to liking the previous movies (especially Iron Man) but Avengers blew them all away. So much to love. Rarely do I go back to the theater to see a movie again, but I'm considering it with this one. I suspect I missed a few (or a lot) of things because I was laughing. Loudly. :)

I've only seen Thor and both Iron Man movies... Iron Man I wasn't bad at all but this was SO MUCH BETTER. Like hannasus said up there, the way Joss wrote the characters the movie transcends the genre.