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I'm looking forward to the Black Widow movie myself! Am really hoping Hawkeye is in it, too (loved their relationship, it was so *slashy*, not like most movie het UST, in that their possible attraction was just a small factor in a deeper and more complicated connection...)

I really liked that about their relationship as well. I've always been a UST shipper anyway and the subtler the better. God, I really hope Joss is gonna do that movie because I don't trust many of the current Hollywood people to do those characters justice, especially Natasha. Like someone said above, I feel like anything else might be a letdown after this.

I can't believe I started to actually care this much about superhero characters. ;)

As a long-time fan of villains, I can say that for me, personally, I hold heroes and villains to entirely different standards.

Hm. I see. But this is why it goes so much against my grain. I just don't like the thought of having different standards 'cause it's not fair.

I mean, I rather like the character of Gul Dukat on DS9 and he's not exactly a shiny beacon of righteousness. I just think that 'good' characters always need to be given the same level of leeway.

I do like a good redemption story too, every once in a while. Would've loved one for Dukat but it would have been hard to pull off. I actually really liked Spike's on Buffy, and I'm one of the apparently few people who's totally happy with how it played out in canon. The whole soul=conscience factor made it possible to redeem the character while not whitewashing his past.

I'm not familiar with Avengers comics canon but I totally agree that Loki, from what I've seen, is too far gone for redemption so a reset would be the only way I could imagine it to work.

Thanks for the rec, if it's hilarious I will check it out. I'm in the mood for funny fic. I've already read two today I really liked. God, I missed having so much fic I can afford be picky and choose according to my mood. I had the fic cravings, man.


God, I really hope Joss is gonna do that movie because I don't trust many of the current Hollywood people to do those characters justice, especially Natasha. Like someone said above, I feel like anything else might be a letdown after this.

Ahhhh yes. Yeah, screwing up Natasha in her movie would be so disappointing (maybe they could find a female writer/director? That might help focus it right!)

I've always had issues with Joss Whedon - I love some of what he does and hate other things, often in the same series which gives me crazy whiplash - but he is so suited to writing superheroes, he can make them snarky and fun while still being human enough to be relatable and loveable.

Hm. I see. But this is why it goes so much against my grain. I just don't like the thought of having different standards 'cause it's not fair.

Ahhh, but don't you hold characters to different standards anyway? Like, you like Jennifer Keller, even though she's not as badass a fighter as Ronon - because Jennifer's a doctor and that's not her role. But you'd be disappointed if the writers always had her failing with medicine and science. While as if Ronon doesn't know anything about science, that's just to be expected; but him kicking ass in battle is part of his charm.

And you liked Dukat, even if you didn't think he was a good man - if, say, Sisko had done what Dukat had done, would you have liked him as much? (especially if he did those things and you were still expected to accept him as the hero of the story?)

Different standards maybe aren't fair, but they're hard to get around; and I think they're somewhat justifiable (then again, I'm largely a moral relativist, so...) I apply them to heroes, too - I've been reading comics now, and in those Thor will kill his enemies in battle, and I find that acceptable because that was how he was raised and how his honor works, and there's strict circumstances where he's willing to kill. While as if Batman kills anyone under any circumstances I cry bad writing, because that is not Batman. But I don't think Thor is necessarily a worse or better hero for it? (well, okay, Batman is Batman, but putting that aside...!)

--Ummmm I am not trying to argue with you or make you like chars you don't like or vice versa - everyone's got their favorites and for all kind of reasons! I just find this kind of thing fascinating ^^;

I liked Spike's redemption myself, and loved Angel vs Angelus too - the kid!Loki in the comics is hitting similar buttons for me, the idea of someone who has done terrible things in the past that were pretty much entirely out of their control, that they now have to find a way to overcome and move beyond (struggles against inner monsters are always so appealing to me!)

Hee, if it's humor you want, just read the first chapter of the fic I sent and see if it disappoints - it's also got h/c and team worry and just, yeah, I was hooked by about the 6th paragraph! ^^ And yes, oh the joy of being in a productive fandom *rolls about in the fic-pile*

Ahhh, but don't you hold characters to different standards anyway? Like, you like Jennifer Keller, even though she's not as badass a fighter as Ronon - because Jennifer's a doctor and that's not her role. But you'd be disappointed if the writers always had her failing with medicine and science. While as if Ronon doesn't know anything about science, that's just to be expected; but him kicking ass in battle is part of his charm.

Huh? That's not a different standard. In this case I expect each to not fail at their respective job. Of course every character has their own respective strength and weaknesses, and flaws that make them human.

Well, it's almost 1am, too late to talk more and to be honest I'm not sure I want to because this veers close to the topic of character bashing and that aggravates me too much. Might get back and talk more tomorrow though.

Sorry, didn't mean to enter difficult territory :( Let's just drop this and I'll maybe go take my rambling and raving to my own lj rather than forcing them on you!

G'night! (and sorry to have kept you up commenting when you could've been fic reading ^^;;;)

"You don't really understand an antagonist until you understand why he's a protagonist in his own version of the world."

I got that curtsey of John Rogers at the kungfumonkey blog... and if I think about Loki in that way, he makes a lot more sense.

And I'm not usually a bad guy lover either... but he's got a lot more to him when you look at him that way.

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