Astrid -

2013-03-07 09:31 am (UTC)

AARGH. Overtagging to the point of uselessness is getting to be my #1 complaint with AO3, and it's something that the management can't do anything about, because it's all down to the users. Tags for minor characters in just about any fandom are USELESS. Crossovers and fusions are tagged all wrong. I'm starting to think we (fandom, as a subculture) would really benefit from some good posts on how to tag, and a general fannish culture that encourages responsible tagging, sort of like people write posts about giving good feedback and encourage others to do it responsibly.

2013-03-07 09:36 am (UTC)

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Overtagging is the thing that makes the archive hardest to use.

But I disagree that the management can't do anything about it: it's a conscious decision on their part to leave it all to the user and I think it's a boneheaded one because you can see how well that works out. But if they don't want to (gently!) force their userbase into more practical tagging habits, they should at least write some quick, helpful guidelines you can click on when you post a work. Or even one or two lines you don't have to click on.

If that writers had just tagged Brandt as a character but not MI4 as a fandom, that would've made tons of sense.

2013-03-07 09:44 am (UTC)

One thing about AO3 that's interesting, I think, is that it's very obviously designed for the creators, not the readers. (Just like LJ/DW. It's all about the person who owns the blog being able to put together the blog however they want, NOT for the person who reads the blog being able to find anything or read it when they find it.) And that is interesting, because ... it's kind of the opposite of what a fic archive is, theoretically, for? It's an archive which is set up to meet the needs of the person posting fic, not the person looking for fic. This is something I'd never even thought about in the beginning, and for all I know, it's not something that the creators thought about, as such, when they were first setting it up. But as the archive has grown, it seems like the major schism has come to be one between the sensible-archive-for-readers people, and the flexible-archive-for posters people.

2013-03-07 09:53 am (UTC)

I think, is that it's very obviously designed for the creators, not the readers.

Mmm *nods* That's what it's shaping into but I don't think that was the intent at the beginning. Or was it? I mean, it goes so against my own understanding what an archive should be. It's like going to the library and being told that all the authors can now decide for themselves where to sort their books. Happy hunting. ;)

And I don't think it's in the interest of most creators, either. I want my work to be found by as many people as possible.

btw, re. crossovers and fusions... is it me or are there less crossover and more fusions being written, recently? Maybe it's only the fandoms I'm in but I find it noticeable. And they are two very different things; I love the classic crossover that actually features both sets of characters and both 'verses and has them mix in an interesting chemical reaction, but fusions rarely do it for me.

2013-03-07 10:07 am (UTC)

That's what it's shaping into but I don't think that was the intent at the beginning. Or was it? I mean, it goes so against my own understanding what an archive should be. It's like going to the library and being told that all the authors can now decide for themselves where to sort their books. Happy hunting. ;)

See, now I'm wondering about that! Most of the modern social networking tools are designed for the users, not the readers - LJ/DW, Tumblr, Facebook, etc. Maybe it's just the modern aesthetic! Clearly most of the successful ones attempt to produce a hybrid interface (LJ/DW lets you skin posts in your own preferred style) but when it comes right down to it, whereas the archives of 2000 were for readers (mostly), and most of the add-ons, like ff.net's search features, were for readers, pretty much everything that's come out in the last few years is for the convenience of the content creator rather than the user.

... that is SO INTERESTING. I never thought about it before.

And they are two very different things; I love the classic crossover that actually features both sets of characters and both 'verses and has them mix in an interesting chemical reaction, but fusions rarely do it for me.

Heh, for me, it is just the opposite: I don't like crossovers, but I enjoy fusions! I hadn't noticed a lack of either (in fact, there seemed to be a ton of crossovers lately in my fandoms) but maybe it's just that I'm reading more these days on AO3, and people are tagging them more thoroughly.

2013-03-07 10:30 am (UTC)

Clearly most of the successful ones attempt to produce a hybrid interface (LJ/DW lets you skin posts in your own preferred style) but when it comes right down to it, whereas the archives of 2000 were for readers (mostly), and most of the add-ons, like ff.net's search features, were for readers, pretty much everything that's come out in the last few years is for the convenience of the content creator rather than the user.

Huh. You're right. And I only now realize that for several years, one of fandom's main fic hub was Livejournal. How on earth did we manage?

2013-03-07 09:51 am (UTC)

...We have guidelines when you post a fic, explaining the intended use for all the tag fields. They're in the help bubbles by each tag name on the Post Works page, and the help text also links to the tag FAQ which provides more information.

There are over 500K works on AO3 and hundreds more coming in daily. Abuse has its hands full dealing with plagiarism, non-fanwork posts, and regulating the few tags we do maintain (ratings and warnings). Tag Wranglers have their hands more than full just trying to keep up with totally legitimate incoming tags. We simply do not have the resources to regulate the works on the archive, and without regulating, it would do no good to tell users how to tag, because plenty of people would still do it wrong (witness how many people keep misusing the things we do have firm rules for!)

There are definitely ways we could make tags more useful for users. Being able to set up a feed for a tag search rather than a filter (so you could "not" stuff out) is something a lot of us would like. Being able to "weight" tags so that you could search for major or minor characters I agree we desperately need. But there's a ton of other things we need as well, and coder time is limited...

...sorry to go off like this. But I put in on average 3-5 hours a day, every day (more on weekends) into AO3 volunteering, on the tag wrangling committee, trying to make it better, trying to make it more useful for as many users as possible. And no, it's not perfect, and yes, I could be doing more, or better work, and yes there is a lot I want to see improved. But I really believe that the core of our wrangling system, that the freedom we allow users in tagging, is the best system for a fanwork archive of AO3's nature. So hearing that my efforts are "boneheaded" is...frustrating. To say the least.

2013-03-07 09:54 am (UTC)

Dude, it's my journal and I'm going to express my personal opinion in my private journal.

2013-03-07 09:57 am (UTC)

Sorry. I never meant to imply you couldn't; I was just expressing my own feelings in return. It's late, I'm tired. Feel free to delete the comment.

2013-03-07 10:00 am (UTC)

's okay. I understand the frustration you feel, I do. I was the archivist/mod for a big, wanky recs list and I put in 20-25 hour weeks maintaining the tags and the archive. It was thankless work because the only time we heard back was usually when people were unhappy. That sucks but that's the way it is. It's not personal but I remember how it feels like it is.

However, I really do disagree with the free tagging philosophy because it really, really makes my fandoms a pain in the ass to search. That's just a fact.

2013-03-07 10:10 am (UTC)

Yeah, thanks, and sorry again...I really should be in bed >.>

The thing is, I think there are ways to make it work. I'm pretty sure if we had a way to search for only the first relationship and first 4 char tags on a work, and a way to search for works tagged with only one fandom, that it would take care of the bulk of the problems over-tagging causes readers. While still giving people more range than a really limited tagging system like ff.net's. And I'm hoping we'll get these capabilities. I don't think the problem is in the philosophy, I think it's that our search and filtering capabilities haven't kept up with the volume of works we're dealing with. But we're not doing too bad - when ff.net was 5 years old, it didn't even have characters or genre. Finding works was a matter of paging through endless lists (or else finding a user with a good Favorites list. And that works on AO3 just as well.)

And hell, it's still better than trolling through lj or god-help-us-all Tumblr looking for fics! >.>

2013-03-07 10:22 am (UTC)

I'm pretty sure if we had a way to search for only the first relationship and first 4 char tags on a work, and a way to search for works tagged with only one fandom, that it would take care of the bulk of the problems over-tagging causes readers.

Oh yes! I've seen you mention this elsewhere, and it sounds like that could take care of almost all the search problems. Listing the main characters/ships first seems to be the one thing that most users do instinctively, without even being prompted. If this filter is technichally possible, that'd be a good solution.

And hell, it's still better than trolling through lj or god-help-us-all Tumblr looking for fics! >.>

True, that. :)

2013-03-07 10:29 am (UTC)

Putting aside all the wrangling-specific features I want - if AO3 can get some kind of weighted tag searching, and a way to download series (which is in the works) then it will pretty much serve all my fic needs. So yeah, believe me, I am pushing for it!

2013-03-07 10:03 am (UTC)

*hugshugs* I think the tag wranglers do a great job! But also, speaking as a frequent poster, I have never clicked on the help links; I always assumed those were for very basic technical info on how to do things, and as soon as I had posted my first fic, I felt confident to find my way around. Is there some way, I wonder, that there could be a ... er, "tagging workshop" or something of that nature?

(Also, if the major-minor character thing ever goes into effect, which I know you want too, that should solve 90% of that particular problem right there! Ditto for some way to filter out crossovers for those who don't want them ...)

Anyhow. I think it's interesting that the creator/user split had never occurred to me before the past few months, because I really do think it's a fundamental disagreement at the heart of a lot of the debates surrounding AO3. LJ/DW are very basically user-based, not reader-based, and few people seem to expect them to be otherwise. I get deeply annoyed with Tumblr's reader-unfriendliness (aargh, trying to link to things ...!) but perhaps part of the problem is that AO3 is seen by some people as existing mostly for the readers, and to others, it is mostly for people posting fic there, and the discrepancy has never really been addressed ...?

And I really appreciate the work of the wranglers, without whom things would not work at all!

2013-03-07 10:24 am (UTC)

...Well, wrangling is much more aimed at assisting browsing users than at creators, so I admit that it's disheartening to think of AO3 as predominately creator-geared! That's not how I see it - I agree that at the moment our creator features are more advanced than our browsing features, but I don't think that's a matter of fundamental philosophy so much as, hmm, order of input? Our first goal was to be getting users to post on us, so posting features were focused on. Then, once we had a bunch of authors posting, people started coming over to read, and more focus switched over to improving the browsing experience; but the creator experience had a headstart, as it were.

And our major issues with user browsing, I think, mostly only became apparent once we started having a staggering number of works. The major/minor char/'ship complaint I've only been hearing for the last year or two - it wasn't really an issue before, not because people were tagging less for all chars, but because there were fewer works to sort through. When there's only a 100 works with your character, it's a little annoying but fully possible to skim and find the focus you're looking for. When there's 10K works with a given char, but they're a minor char in 90% of the fics - that's when the system becomes unusable.

...And ahh, Tumblr. Tumblr has the interesting feature of being, in my experience, an equally horrible experience for both creators and readers. ...or maybe I'm still just bitter over the new posting form truncating all my tags :P

2013-03-07 10:36 am (UTC)

Well, just because a site is more oriented towards users than readers doesn't mean that one can't strive for a better reader interface! (See: Livejournal, and its various reader-oriented features like memories and styles.) But, having said that, I definitely see what you mean! *hugs* And I DO appreciate the work of the wranglers, I totally do.

The thought also occurs to me that the user tagging free-for-all style might be the only way (or at least, by far the most efficient way) to start a new fandom, or to inaugurate the archive when there are no tags at all! And then slowly the tags get established and made canonical, but there are still people adding new fandoms, and new fannish terminology becoming a thing that needs to be tagged for -- if you tried to use 2000s fannish terminology on the archive, you would be leaving so much out! And I don't know how to deal with that, honestly. Letting users make up their own tags is really the only thing that keeps the archive from being hopelessly mired in whatever year it started in.

2013-03-07 10:06 pm (UTC)

*hugs back* I know our work's appreciated, but thank you, it's always good to hear it! :D

Yeah, that's the main reason I like our semi-free-for-all system for the archive. It can take a while for tags to get added to ff.net or to the restricted tags list of a community, and the request process can be long and difficult and easily backed up, requests getting lost, etc. And it's even harder if you're trying to keep up with changing fandom trends - or changing fandoms which add new characters, etc. With our tagging system we don't have to wait for fans to request stuff, or try to guess and anticipate what fans want. Instead we can easily see what fans are tagging for and make canonicals appropriately, so whether it's a new character or an episode that inspired everyone to write ep tags for or a new kind of AU (who could've guessed a few years ago that Coffee Shop AUs would be such a hit!), we can be on top of it! And even when we do fall behind, the tags will still be there in search, and to be canonized later.

I totally agree that we need better searching and filtering, and the AO3 design committee knows it to. Search is difficult stuff, but yeah, we've already made major strides in that, and we're going to be making more (...a couple years ago the big complaint was that we had no good "not" filtering; now we have the basics of that, so people are complaining about major/minor chars - I'm sure once that issue's worked out, there will be something else that inhibits browsing, but slowly and surely progress is being made!)

Edited at 2013-03-07 10:06 pm (UTC)

2013-03-07 07:05 pm (UTC)

Can I just go OT and ask... how do you link to things on tumblr? Is there a way? The other day I found a post on the the-unusuals tag but I couldn't find direkt link to that post.

(And I've found direkt links to posts in the past, but sometimes I'm just stumped.)

2013-03-07 07:45 pm (UTC)

I have NO FUCKING CLUE. Drives me nuts. The only way I can figure to link things is if there's a link embedded in it, such as a "read more" cut tag, or included comments from someone else. There's got to be some way, but damned if I know how.